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EParham Profile
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Menard Re-studding?


You folks have probably been through this over the years I was away, but I didn't find any old threads about it. I read the current rules, sifted through my old Menards, and bought some used ones cheap from Rob Reed (thanks Rob!). Now, to begin re-studding... Obviously, if I can re-insert a Menard stud, I will (perhaps with glue if required?). Where not enough rubber, the rules allow Kold Kutter screws, which seem to have [sign in to see URL]" to [sign in to see URL]" head height. If I replace a Menard stud with a Kold Kutter, it sits too low compared to the Menard studs as if it wouldn't even reach the ice. I see a few potential solutions: 1) insert a spacer or washers to raise the Kold Kutter to the same height as the remaining Menard Studs (although that would probably make it less stable); 2) pull all the Menard studs and use only Kold Kutters; 3) find a screw with head height comparable to Menard studs (e.g., possibly some MF44 ice racing screws, although most look too "optimized"). Thoughts?

Last edited by EParham, 1/20/2017, 3:14 am


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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
1/20/2017, 3:13 am Link to this post Send Email to EParham   Send PM to EParham
 
Dave 48 Profile
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


Hi Eric, if you want to replace studs in Menard tires you can take an old stud, put the tip of it in some vice grips, then wet the rubber with something like brake cleaner or WD40 and push while turning the stud into the rubber it will go back in assuming the old stud is completely removed. Sometimes the whole stud falls out and sometimes it breaks off and the round end is still in there and you would need to get that out before putting a new stud in.

Using some sort of glue on the studs would be helpful because usually if the stud fell out its because the rubber was week and it will fall out easily again.

One thing a lot of people don't do on their cars is optimize their front suspension geometry. The outside edge of the menard tire will spit out the studs in one race if you don't have enough negative camber, lots of positive caster and enough air pressure.

In regards to inserting a Kold Kutter screw you can put one of these in the rubber next to the hole where the old stud was. No need for spacers or anything like that just use some good rubber near by. Keep in mind by doing that the tire may fail prematurely. The menard tires were made using cheap tire carcasses to recap onto so they do not have steel belts or not enough steel belts. Inserting a screw can hurt the tire after running on it for a while. I used to do it and they would work great but I would get only a weekend or two out of a tire before it blew up. But that was on my SMO car with a lot of HP and wings. They may last a lot longer on a lower powered car.

Also you will need to put a nut and washer on the inside of the tire and use tire sealer. You could try just using sheet metal thread kold kutters and not use a nut on the inside but the cars seem to eject the screws without nuts on the inside. You may want to also use a washer on the outside and inside to stabilize the screw in the rubber. Screws are not easy to make work reliably but some of us have been able to do it well so ask for advice if needed and look so you don't get disappointed with flat tires. If you really want to be sure and not have flats you can also insert tire liners and use a tube but there is a whole method to doing that also.

One last thing on tires and this applies to all classes. Don't abuse your tires spinning the tires at full power while at full lock sliding off course just ruins the tire. Be kind to your tires and they will win you races. The biggest factor in wining ice races [sign in to see URL] tire management.

Hope that helps,

Dave B
1/20/2017, 7:52 am Link to this post Send Email to Dave 48   Send PM to Dave 48
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


In Vermont we have made it illegal to use fasteners that are not secured on both sides of the tire carcass. This is because, as Dave said, the screw can be ejected. This is inconvenient for you, but more importantly a hazard for another competitor slicing a tire, which can range from expensive to down right dangerous (surprise slow deflation of an unstudded car at 70mph braking into the sun toward a bunch of spectators). Please take the time to retain your fasteners the right way.

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1/20/2017, 8:42 am Link to this post Send Email to pdudley42   Send PM to pdudley42
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


To go along with Dave's last paragraph.

Driving on ice is almost the opposite of driving on pavement.
A spinning tire has less traction than a tire that is not spinning. Less is more.
Why do some guys shift ? Using that extra power causes the tires to slip, in and out of the corner. Again not like pavement.
The only time you might need to shift is if you run out of RPM's on the straight.
Lug that engine coming out of the corner and you will go faster.


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1/20/2017, 9:40 am Link to this post Send Email to rc vedder   Send PM to rc vedder Blog
 
EParham Profile
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


All sound advice, thanks! I hadn't realized that the Menard tire carcasses generally lacked steel belts or comparable support for screws...

My French is poor, but in trying to read about some ice racing in Quebec I noticed (possibly in the Lavaltrie rules) that grid-type liners might be used to actually support the screws (rather than to separate them from a tube). That is, the screws are bolted through the "liner"! Has anyone tried these to better support screw studs in old Menards?

Those Pirelli molded-stud snow/ice rally tires look sweet, but prohibitively expensive.

On a side note, would Michelin's airless Tweels (or the like from any manufacturer) be considered "any tire" for our purposes?

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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
1/20/2017, 1:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to EParham   Send PM to EParham
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


Are they actually selling the Michelin Tweels?

If yes I would definitely try them with some Kold Kuttersemoticon

On the grid type liners was that for cars or motorcycles?

Dave B
1/20/2017, 2:20 pm Link to this post Send Email to Dave 48   Send PM to Dave 48
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


The Tweels are readily available for industrial equipment and have been tested on-road, but not yet DOT approved for street use reportedly due to an archaic rule about having to maintain some minimum above-ambient air pressure(!). Early issues with debris infiltration are said to have been resolved. I understand that they're increasingly used on skid-steers.

The grid-type liners were mentioned in specific auto racing rules, although I don't have a specific part num or source yet so can't confirm that was an application originally intended by the manufacturer. I've got to start prepping for Sunday, but might do some more research next week. IIRC, it was the car rules on this site that mentioned them: [sign in to see URL]


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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
1/20/2017, 7:01 pm Link to this post Send Email to EParham   Send PM to EParham
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


Found the grid/mesh liner reference in the rules from that page and translated below. I know "Endurance II" is an MF44 stud, so perhaps they offer the mesh as well.

Auto Regulations

...

TIRES

...

-A mechanical style mesh of 10/32 "(Endurance I) or M6 (Endurance II) with internal retaining nuts


Last edited by EParham, 1/20/2017, 7:23 pm


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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
1/20/2017, 7:18 pm Link to this post Send Email to EParham   Send PM to EParham
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


I went to Quebec on Saturday (when apparently I should have been working on my car for today although I'd thought it was ready) and saw a Canadian ice race Finale at Roxton Pond.

The whole thing was quite a show, with paying spectators, music, announcer, bleachers, etc. I got some cell phone video of the race itself and many pics of ice racing tires in the pits.

They're mostly running DMACK ICE2 and ICE3 tires, and the top finishing FWD cars were exclusively running DMACKs on at least the front. They buy them unstudded and insert only MF44 studs (mostly pink) because their series requires those particular studs. DMACK can supply pre-studded but apparently not with the required MF44.

Anyone know the difference between "Swedish" and "Monte" studding? Were Menards "Swedish" type?

My French is poor so far and fewer spoke English than I'd hoped, so I failed to learn all about the studding process and/or any internal mesh used.

A VW Scirocco that qualified well for the Finale had a tire failure during the race and green Slime seemed to fill its front wheel-well, but unfortunately I still didn't get to see the inside of the tire where the studs attached. Several of the finale finishers also showed signs of Slime in the wheel-wells, so whatever they're doing obviously leakage is still an issue. The studs themselves seemed to stay put, though, even on the failed tire!

I saw Pirelli tires on just one car that didn't make the Finale, although it too had been re-studded with pink MF44 studs. I also saw some Michelins and old Menards (or possibly Pryme) in stacks of spares, but not on cars as raced.

I had a pair of Nike track spikes for running shorter distance track and occasional cross-country races in high school, where you could select stud type/length for race conditions and they screwed into captive nuts that were molded into the sole. Has there ever been anything like that for ice racing tires?

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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
2/5/2017, 8:02 pm Link to this post Send Email to EParham   Send PM to EParham
 
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Re: Menard Re-studding?


TIRES/STUDS REVISITED

Regarding studs themselves, our AMEC 2017 rules currently permit "Kold Kutter AMA #10" or "Kanadian Kold Kutter #12" studs in various counts per foot (why less for MC class?). "A washer placed under the head of the screw will be allowed to help stabilize the screw." The rules also permit the Pirelli WR5 tire with molded-in (7mm protrusion) studs, but just in one size so far.

If we could better standardize (perhaps with other clubs, but at least in our own rules to start with) on the specifications/dimensions of studs and counts rather than requiring specific brand/model (of tire or stud, unless part of a sponsorship deal that would help the club both short and long term), we might have a better chance of getting manufacturers to provide more trouble-free tires with compliant molded-in studs (or perhaps even retaining threads as in my running shoe example). I think specifying particular manufacturers/models rather than actual dimensions/specifications might be an error that's actually hindering long-term availability.


MORE DATA

The ice tires on the cars in Quebec as they rolled off the track were using mostly MF44 brand Endurance II studs, I think as part of their sponsorship and rules (which specifically allow two types of MF44 brand studs, the MF44 Endurance I that's been superseded by the MF44 AMA which appears equivalent to Kold Kutter AMA, and the MF44 Endurance II which appears equivalent to the Kold Kutter Canadian). The MF44 Endurance II are symmetrical studs with about a 6-8mm head protrusion (rough measurement with thumb nail, and not counting washer portion which might be 1mm).

The MF44 AMA studs appear to have exactly the same head as the Kold Kutter AMA #10 already permitted by AMEC, but with a larger OD integral washer portion and come with matching 10/32" nylon-insert zinc-plated jam nuts.

The MF44 Endurance II studs appear to have the same head as the "Kold Kutter Canadian #12" (proper name), but come with matching M6 nylon-insert zinc-plated jam nuts.


CONCLUSION

I think AMEC should consider simply specifying max stud head diameter and protrusion height, require symmetric stud heads (if we want to avoid ice-eating spoon or chisel points, for example), perhaps a max dish volume (if we choose to limit hollowness), and counts per foot (as we do already) and/or per tire. A minimum requirement for positive retention could be applied in terms of wheel torque with stud pivoting at its tip (perhaps at one or more fixed temperatures, or simply ask manufacturers to specify a temperature or range for which it complies), and/or a minimum base diameter less protrusion diameter (think Menards versus Pryme).


------------------------------------------

EDIT: I presume any manufacturer calling it's studs "AMA" meets the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) specs. For reference, the AMA specifies their stud specs for 2017 as follows:

AMA Racing Rulebook 2017
6. Ice screw specifications:
a. Sheet metal screws with a ¼” hexagonal washer head with no more than one straight screwdriver slot.
b. Overall head height from under washer 3/16” (.1875” + or - .006)
c. Maximum head washer diameter: .350”
d. Screw driver slot not to exceed .085”
e. Screw height not to exceed 3/16” (.1875” + or - .006) above tire. No added washers. Base of screw must contact rubber of tire.
f. No screw modification from production allowed, such as sharpening etc. Tire cutting or regrooving is not permitted in studded classes.

Last edited by EParham, 2/6/2017, 1:43 pm


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Eric P. -- Formerly 44D Red/Yellow VW Scirocco. Now 114SL.
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